Interview with
Susan Marquis
Author & Dean of Pardee RAND Graduate School
Susan Marquis
Author & Dean of Pardee RAND Graduate School
Photo Credit: Diane Baldwin
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Susan L. Marquis is dean of the Pardee RAND Graduate School and is RAND’s vice president for innovation. Prior to joining RAND, she served in leadership positions in the Office of the Secretary of Defense and the U.S. Navy as well as in a nonprofit government consulting firm.
Susan teaches and does research on innovative solutions to persistent and complex public policy problems. Her new book is I Am Not A Tractor! How Florida Farmworkers Took On the Fast Food Giants and Won (ILR Press, December 2017). She is also the author of Unconventional Warfare: Rebuilding U.S. Special Operations Forces (1997). Susan currently serves as the chair of Woodrow Wilson School Advisory Council (Princeton University), was a visiting fellow at the University of Cambridge, and is a non-resident senior fellow at the Fox Leadership Institution (University of Pennsylvania). She is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and the Pacific Council on International Policy and a founding member of the Board of Directors of Economics of the National Security Association. Recognizing that all work and no play makes Jack(ie) a dull girl, Susan is an avid cook, a former cheesemaker, a Washington Nationals fan and a practitioner of Tai Chi. |
Nancy Burger, senior editor, talked to Susan about her career and the journey that led to the writing of I Am Not a Tractor! as well as the message she hopes readers will take away from the book.
You've had a varied and interesting career. After earning your master's from Princeton in 1987, you worked for the Army? What was behind that decision?
We can go back even further. I was a terrible high school student, including at the American School of the Hague.* I graduated in the bottom third of my class - I would dive deep into things that interested me, but school didn't. For example, I got way into the 1976 election for reasons I can't really explain. I knew everything about those candidates. I came back to the states and attended William and Mary because I had excellent SAT scores but appalling grades - that was back when you could get in based on your SATs. After two years, I dropped out of college, managed bands and worked at a record store in Washington D.C. Then I moved to New York City and worked at a record company. I eventually went to Trenton State in New Jersey for a semester and then attended Rutgers on probation. Then I got focused. I attended the Woodrow Wilson School at Princeton for my master's degree and went on to work for the army as a civilian and afterward for the Secretary of Defense in the analytic organization which was then called Program Analysis and Evaluation. They sent me back to get my Ph.D. (at the Woodrow Wilson School) after which I wrote my first book on special operations forces titled Unconventional Warfare.
What drew you to that kind of work?
I had always been interested in the military, beginning in the third grade when I read books like John F. Kennedy and PT-109 and Red Badge of Courage. When I was in Rutgers, my degree was in history, but I focused significantly on military and diplomatic U.S. history. At Woodrow Wilson, I concentrated on international relations and international security.
That culminated in your writing Unconventional Warfare in 1997? What made you decide to write the book?
It came out of my dissertation. I expected to write it about what a disaster U.S. Special Operation Forces (i.e. Navy Seals, Army Special Forces) were, but, in fact, they had been revitalized and rebuilt after about half a century of not being appreciated.
Your two books are very different from each other. Is there a connection?
There is actually a very strong connection between the two books. The first is that both the rebuilding of the Special Operation Forces and the Fair Food Program have been successful - they're things that work, and we don't tend to read too much about things that work. The second connection is why and how they work. What has it taken for them to be successful? Both books spend a lot of time talking about how this happened. The federal government doesn't have much of a reputation for doing things right, but they have done things right with U.S. Special Operation Forces, and the Coalition of Imokolee Workers represents transformational change.
Do you think the story is applicable to other industries?
Yes. Obviously, it's applicable across agriculture. Outside of that, it's most directly applicable to factory labor - again where you have a large work force and very powerful buyers. Interestingly, another place we've seen it apply is, with a Los Angeles janitors' union called SCIU that is looking at adopting this model of worker-driven social responsibility. It could even work in the gig economy. The trick is to look at the system as a whole to determine what the pieces are, how do they fit together, what is the worker's place in that system and how do you transform it? The challenge is that it's a lot of work. You have to spend the time to approach it comprehensively. And you need effective monitoring - what is most effective is the workers themselves doing it and, not just focusing on enforcement, but also putting sanctions in place for violations.
Have you been approached to implement this elsewhere through your work with RAND?
No, RAND doesn't really do that, but I have been approached by a major agricultural company in California that is interested in applying a version of the model here. They were already considering it, but they got a copy of the book and thought they could succeed in moving forward.
Do you feel like your work at RAND led you to write I Am Not a Tractor! or was the path more circuitous? You mentioned in the book that you learned of Imokolee from an article in Gourmet magazine.
It was this odd series of events. I was carrying around an old copy of Gourmet magazine for about two months when I came upon an article on the subject by Barry Estabrook article and was shocked by it. I couldn't believe this was happening now in our country. I put the magazine aside, but then I met David Wang and he said something about his other philanthropic interests, and I realized he was talking about these tomato pickers in Imokolee. So, it seemed like I should be paying attention. But I didn't start with, "I think I'll write a book." I first wanted to figure out what was happening.
What message are you hoping the book will send?
I think the question of what it takes to effect real change is an important one. To change the system, you have to actually understand the system. You need to be able to communicate effectively, to have a consistent story and know what you're trying to do. You have to spend as much time thinking about implementation as you do everything else. You have to stick with it. People matter, and sometimes it takes extraordinary people. But there are extraordinary people all over the place. I think it's easy for some people who push for change to be somewhat patronizing. They think, "We'll go help the workers." No. You can work with the workers, and the workers can lead the change. This experience has changed my view of charity and how I think about philanthropy.
What are you doing with all your free time?
Susan laughs. Running the graduate school at RAND.
It sounds like you love what you do.
Yes, I do. You mentioned that Sanctuary is non-political. RAND is also completely non-partisan. We're data-driven, evidence-based, and these are times that really need that kind of constructive approach to policy, issues and alternatives. I'm really proud to be part of RAND - it’s a wonderful institution. We're in the process of completely redesigning the school. It's the largest and I think the best public policy Ph.D. program in the world. We're building a school focused on solutions, new thinking, new tools and methods, cutting-edge application of technology to policy programs and a deep understanding of what it takes to effect change. We need to be persistent, just like the farm workers.
Where is your sanctuary? (#WheresYourSanctuary)
I find my sanctuary both through Tai Chi and through my church. We also love to go to Chatham in Cape Cod and to Mancos, Colorado.
*In 1976, Susan and Nancy were classmates at the American School of the Hague in the Netherlands.
You've had a varied and interesting career. After earning your master's from Princeton in 1987, you worked for the Army? What was behind that decision?
We can go back even further. I was a terrible high school student, including at the American School of the Hague.* I graduated in the bottom third of my class - I would dive deep into things that interested me, but school didn't. For example, I got way into the 1976 election for reasons I can't really explain. I knew everything about those candidates. I came back to the states and attended William and Mary because I had excellent SAT scores but appalling grades - that was back when you could get in based on your SATs. After two years, I dropped out of college, managed bands and worked at a record store in Washington D.C. Then I moved to New York City and worked at a record company. I eventually went to Trenton State in New Jersey for a semester and then attended Rutgers on probation. Then I got focused. I attended the Woodrow Wilson School at Princeton for my master's degree and went on to work for the army as a civilian and afterward for the Secretary of Defense in the analytic organization which was then called Program Analysis and Evaluation. They sent me back to get my Ph.D. (at the Woodrow Wilson School) after which I wrote my first book on special operations forces titled Unconventional Warfare.
What drew you to that kind of work?
I had always been interested in the military, beginning in the third grade when I read books like John F. Kennedy and PT-109 and Red Badge of Courage. When I was in Rutgers, my degree was in history, but I focused significantly on military and diplomatic U.S. history. At Woodrow Wilson, I concentrated on international relations and international security.
That culminated in your writing Unconventional Warfare in 1997? What made you decide to write the book?
It came out of my dissertation. I expected to write it about what a disaster U.S. Special Operation Forces (i.e. Navy Seals, Army Special Forces) were, but, in fact, they had been revitalized and rebuilt after about half a century of not being appreciated.
Your two books are very different from each other. Is there a connection?
There is actually a very strong connection between the two books. The first is that both the rebuilding of the Special Operation Forces and the Fair Food Program have been successful - they're things that work, and we don't tend to read too much about things that work. The second connection is why and how they work. What has it taken for them to be successful? Both books spend a lot of time talking about how this happened. The federal government doesn't have much of a reputation for doing things right, but they have done things right with U.S. Special Operation Forces, and the Coalition of Imokolee Workers represents transformational change.
Do you think the story is applicable to other industries?
Yes. Obviously, it's applicable across agriculture. Outside of that, it's most directly applicable to factory labor - again where you have a large work force and very powerful buyers. Interestingly, another place we've seen it apply is, with a Los Angeles janitors' union called SCIU that is looking at adopting this model of worker-driven social responsibility. It could even work in the gig economy. The trick is to look at the system as a whole to determine what the pieces are, how do they fit together, what is the worker's place in that system and how do you transform it? The challenge is that it's a lot of work. You have to spend the time to approach it comprehensively. And you need effective monitoring - what is most effective is the workers themselves doing it and, not just focusing on enforcement, but also putting sanctions in place for violations.
Have you been approached to implement this elsewhere through your work with RAND?
No, RAND doesn't really do that, but I have been approached by a major agricultural company in California that is interested in applying a version of the model here. They were already considering it, but they got a copy of the book and thought they could succeed in moving forward.
Do you feel like your work at RAND led you to write I Am Not a Tractor! or was the path more circuitous? You mentioned in the book that you learned of Imokolee from an article in Gourmet magazine.
It was this odd series of events. I was carrying around an old copy of Gourmet magazine for about two months when I came upon an article on the subject by Barry Estabrook article and was shocked by it. I couldn't believe this was happening now in our country. I put the magazine aside, but then I met David Wang and he said something about his other philanthropic interests, and I realized he was talking about these tomato pickers in Imokolee. So, it seemed like I should be paying attention. But I didn't start with, "I think I'll write a book." I first wanted to figure out what was happening.
What message are you hoping the book will send?
I think the question of what it takes to effect real change is an important one. To change the system, you have to actually understand the system. You need to be able to communicate effectively, to have a consistent story and know what you're trying to do. You have to spend as much time thinking about implementation as you do everything else. You have to stick with it. People matter, and sometimes it takes extraordinary people. But there are extraordinary people all over the place. I think it's easy for some people who push for change to be somewhat patronizing. They think, "We'll go help the workers." No. You can work with the workers, and the workers can lead the change. This experience has changed my view of charity and how I think about philanthropy.
What are you doing with all your free time?
Susan laughs. Running the graduate school at RAND.
It sounds like you love what you do.
Yes, I do. You mentioned that Sanctuary is non-political. RAND is also completely non-partisan. We're data-driven, evidence-based, and these are times that really need that kind of constructive approach to policy, issues and alternatives. I'm really proud to be part of RAND - it’s a wonderful institution. We're in the process of completely redesigning the school. It's the largest and I think the best public policy Ph.D. program in the world. We're building a school focused on solutions, new thinking, new tools and methods, cutting-edge application of technology to policy programs and a deep understanding of what it takes to effect change. We need to be persistent, just like the farm workers.
Where is your sanctuary? (#WheresYourSanctuary)
I find my sanctuary both through Tai Chi and through my church. We also love to go to Chatham in Cape Cod and to Mancos, Colorado.
*In 1976, Susan and Nancy were classmates at the American School of the Hague in the Netherlands.
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